Guardian reports: There is no privacy for anyone on the iPhone after iOS15

[NewsKrawler]

The iPhone lost all claims of privacy after iOS15 the Guardian reports.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/07/week-in-patriarchy-apple-privacy

Apple is about to start poking through all your text messages and photos.

neuralMatch scans your photo libraries to see if they contain anything
interesting.

Another feature scans all your iMessage images for interesting content.

Of particular concern to security researchers and privacy activists is the
fact that this new feature doesn't just look at images stored on the cloud;
it scans users' devices without their consent.

There's now a wide open and virtually unclosable backdoor into every
person's iPhone, one which has the potential to grow wider and wider.

You can imagine, for example, how certain countries might pressure Apple to
scan for anti-government messages or LGBTQ content.

Apple is rolling out mass surveillance to the entire world with this,
Snowden tweeted. "Apple turned a trillion dollars of devices into iNarcs
without asking."

[Bears]

Snopes doesn't seem to have anything on it nor does factcheck.org
but there are articles that Financial Times leaked the article, if that is credible than go for it.

--
Linux Mint Cinnamon 20.1 64bit, Dell Inspiron 5570 laptop
Quad Core i7-8550U, 16G Memory, 512G SSD, 750G & 1TB HDDs

[Alan Baker]

You should actually try and learn something before you start spewing.

[Your Name]

More utter crap posted by the conspiracy nutter trolls. :-(

[Java Jive]

No, actually, if you'd bothered to follow and read the link you'd
realise that this is potentially a very serious problem. Not many
people would condemn an attempt to curb online child abuse without very
good reasons, those reasons being what could happen next, how such a
system could be expanded, possibly under government pressure, to scan
people's political views, etc. See also:

"Apple criticised for system that detects child abuse"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58124495

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

[Alan Baker]

No, actually.

It presents precisely no new problems at all.

It is making everyone aware of the fact that governments could order
technology companies to use this kind of technology in nefarious ways...

...but Apple actually doing it for a good purpose has not added any
additional risk AT ALL.

The risk has been there all along.

[Your Name]

Yep, as I said, the usual utter crap posted by conspiracy nutter trolls. :-\

[John Robertson]

On 2021/08/07 9:52 pm, Your Name wrote:
> Yep, as I said, the usual utter crap posted by conspiracy nutter trolls.

Everyone who is reliable is a "nutter" according to this idiot "Your Name."

Reliable media like the New York Times are nutters to this Your Name idiot.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/05/technology/apple-iphones-privacy.html

The EFF are all "nutters" according to the idiot named "Your Name."
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/08/apples-plan-think-different-about-encryption-opens-backdoor-your-private-life

This idiot Your Name called reputable media like The Guardian "nutters."
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/07/week-in-patriarchy-apple-privacy

This Your Name idiot called the Washington Post "nutters" too.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/apple-to-scan-us-phones-for-images-of-child-abuse/2021/08/05/e6c968ac-f61f-11eb-a636-18cac59a98dc_story.html

The idiot Your Name called the LA Times "nutters" for accurate reporting.
https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/story/2021-08-06/apple-says-feature-to-find-child-images-doesnt-create-backdoor

All who reliably reported are "nutters" according to the idiot Your Name.
--
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

[The Real Bev]

On 08/07/2021 10:33 PM, John Robertson wrote:

> The idiot Your Name called the LA Times "nutters" for accurate reporting.
>https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/story/2021-08-06/apple-says-feature-to-find-child-images-doesnt-create-backdoor

"The company reiterated that it doesn’t scan a device owner’s entire
photo library to look for abusive images but instead uses cryptography
to compare images with a known database provided by the National Center
for Missing & Exploited Children."

I find it difficult to believe that that task can be done without
scanning the entire library -- possibly even the entire phone. And does
it search only for known kiddieporn? As long as the National Center
hasn't seen it it's OK?

The Times (a local newspaper) is no more accurate than any other
fishwrap. Modern reporters seem to have a lot of difficulty with
spelling, grammar, facts and logic.


--
Cheers, Bev
You know how dumb the average person is?
Well, by definition, half are *even dumber*!

[John Robertson]

On 2021/08/08 12:4 am, The Real Bev wrote:

> I find it difficult to believe that that task can be done without
> scanning the entire library -- possibly even the entire phone.

Apple has declared all iPhone owners are criminals, who deserve no privacy.
Even Edward Snowden called this action turning the iPhone into the "iNarc."

What you need to know is Apple is scanning ON YOUR iPhone!
Nobody else does that.
Only Apple.

Apple puts a cryptic hash ON YOUR iPhone that nobody can't see inside of.
Nobody else does that.
Only Apple.

Apple will also scan all your iMessages for any interesting content.
Why how nice of Apple to do that for you, don't you think?

The question everyone reputable is asking is where does it stop?
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/martin-niemoeller-first-they-came-for-the-socialists

I think Apple will likely go after those sick gay people next.
After Apple outs all the gay people, they will go after religious nuts.
And then right and left wingers.
Maybe even people who haven't paid their alimony?

Now that Apple has decreed all iPhone owners are criminals, and since all
iPhone owners are criminals no iPhone owner deserves any privacy, where does
it stop?

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out.
Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out.
Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out.
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me.
And there was no one left to speak for me.

[nospam]

In article <sens4s$pv7$1...@dont-email.me>, The Real Bev
<bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> >>https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/story/2021-08-06/apple-says-feat
> >ure-to-find-child-images-doesnt-create-backdoor
>
> "The company reiterated that it doesnšt scan a device owneršs entire

> photo library to look for abusive images but instead uses cryptography
> to compare images with a known database provided by the National Center
> for Missing & Exploited Children."

yep. that is a correct summary.

> I find it difficult to believe that that task can be done without
> scanning the entire library -- possibly even the entire phone.

believe it. read apple's white paper for the details.

only photos uploaded to icloud are checked via a cryptographic
fingerprint, which also has to meet a certain threshold.

> And does
> it search only for known kiddieporn? As long as the National Center
> hasn't seen it it's OK?

yep, although it doesn't actively search anything. anything the user
chooses to upload to icloud is checked. if it's not uploaded, it's not
checked. it's conceptually quite simple.

> The Times (a local newspaper) is no more accurate than any other
> fishwrap. Modern reporters seem to have a lot of difficulty with
> spelling, grammar, facts and logic.

nowhere near as much as internet trolls and conspiracy nutjobs.

[John Robertson]

On 2021/08/08 12:15 am, nospam wrote:
> only photos uploaded to icloud are checked via a cryptographic
> fingerprint, which also has to meet a certain threshold.

How can you be so stupid to not know the hash is loaded ON YOUR iPhone?
How can you also be so stupid as to not know the scan is ON YOUR iPhone?
And how can you be so stupid as to not know they can scan iMessages too?
--

[Alan Baker]

Not nutters.

Just lazy reporters.

[Your Name]

Please do not reply to the moron trolls. :-(

[Paul]

It's easier to make a FISA court request, if you know
the rails are greased and ready to go. We're not talking
about tricky things like designing new silicon or
making changes to an OS. Just stick in the hash on a doc
some leaker released, and track them down like a dog.
The hash pops up like toast in a toaster. Sweet.
This really is risky.

The FISA court has no scruples, and neither do the people
in government, either party, when it comes to this kind of power.

And it's even meme-worthy, a new power grab complete with
a "think of the children".

If there was an actual rule of law in the country, it
might be different.

Imagine if we were reduced to phones, that only made
phone calls. I'd better talk to my broker about
a position in a flip-phone company.

Paul

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 08.08.21 um 08:15 schrieb nospam:

> nowhere near as much as internet trolls and conspiracy nutjobs.

The whole story is already ways beyond the facts. Opinons are made.
We are observers how Apple is comitting commercial suicide and is
destroying its reputation. The shares are a safe short.

Sorry to say but this is the beginning of the end.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

[Java Jive]

On 08/08/2021 08:11, Your Name wrote:
>
> Please do not reply to the moron trolls.  :-(

The fact remains that this *is* a potential issue, and you are the moron
troll here. So, fair enough, I'm sure most here will be happy to ignore
you at your own request !!!

[Java Jive]

> ....but Apple actually doing it for a good purpose has not added any

> additional risk AT ALL.
>
> The risk has been there all along.

Well, yes, and no. Technically I suppose you are correct, but the risk
is low as long as the technology hasn't been implemented on a phone to
do it. This is implementing that technology and making it part of the
OS, and thus massively increasing the risk that it will be misused.

So while you might be technically correct to say that the risk has been
there all along, and this is just inaccurate reporting and hype, the
fact remains that this is a new, significant, and serious increase in
the risk, and thus you are unwisely downplaying it by your remarks.

[Mayayana]

"Java Jive" <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote

| > The risk has been there all along.
|
| Well, yes, and no.

Alan Baker is another rabid AppleSeed, like nospam.
There's no point discussing with him.

[Mayayana]

"John Robertson" <sp...@flippers.com> wrote

|
| Everyone who is reliable is a "nutter" according to this idiot "Your
Name."
|
| Reliable media like the New York Times are nutters to this Your Name
idiot.
| https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/05/technology/apple-iphones-privacy.html
|

Actually, I'd trust NYTimes less than most. The most thorough
technical info I found was on DailyMail. People like to make fun
of them for their thong photos and love of scandal, but they get
the news and they generally get it right. The EFF article was a
good presentation of implications.

The NYTimes article, by contrast, was a good example of their
usual pro-business sleaze. They use misleading wording to make
it sound like the scanning is done on the server. With children's
phones they say it's on the phone. With other photo's it says they
will "spot [child porn] images... that users upload to Apple’s iCloud
storage service". It's typical NYT. It doesn't lie outright, but it
does mislead the reader in favor of business customers.

Someone yesterday pointed out an aspect that I hadn't thought
of: You have a 15 year old kid. They have a boyfriend or girlfriend.
The kids are having sex. They send each other nude photos. You're
getting copies but allow it to continue and don't report it to the
police... Can you be indicted for running a child porn operation?
What about the kids? Can they both be arrested? This is not
farfetched. I once knew of a young man who had a girlfriend
across state lines. I think he was 16 and she was 15. In one state
it was legal. In the other he was a rapist. They had a child, but
due to current anti-sex mania he couldn't declare himself the father
for fear of statutory rape prosecution!

We can get into all sorts of greater complications when spyware
tech companies are allowed to play Sherlock Holmes while throwing
out the 4th amendment. Apple only care about their carefully
marketted public image. And they've already shown thmselves
incompetent with their ridiculous claim that there can only be
one in a trillion false positives. Does anybody imagine that if
someone gets falsely accused, Timmy Cook is going to appear
in court and say, "Sorry, it turns out our software is crap." ?

[nospam]

In article <seoikm$10b$1...@dont-email.me>, Mayayana

<maya...@invalid.nospam> wrote:

> Actually, I'd trust NYTimes less than most. The most thorough
> technical info I found was on DailyMail.

the daily mail?? you must be joking.

if you're actually interested in technical info, then read apple's
white paper on exactly how it works.

unfortunately, you're not interested in such details.

> Someone yesterday pointed out an aspect that I hadn't thought
> of: You have a 15 year old kid. They have a boyfriend or girlfriend.
> The kids are having sex. They send each other nude photos. You're
> getting copies but allow it to continue and don't report it to the
> police... Can you be indicted for running a child porn operation?

it doesn't work that way.

parents must explicitly opt-in to checking for inappropriate content in
text messages for their kids who are 12 years old or younger, and only
the parents are alerted. apple is not involved, nor is law enforcement.

teenagers can voluntarily choose to be warned of inappropriate content,
and if they do, their parents are *not* notified nor do their parents
have the option to be warned even if they wanted to. only the teenager
gets the warning.

thus, for your example of two horny 15 year olds sending naked pix to
each other, their parents will not find out unless they send it to
their parents by mistake.

> What about the kids? Can they both be arrested? This is not
> farfetched.

yes it is very far fetched, because it's completely wrong.

> I once knew of a young man who had a girlfriend
> across state lines. I think he was 16 and she was 15. In one state
> it was legal. In the other he was a rapist. They had a child, but
> due to current anti-sex mania he couldn't declare himself the father
> for fear of statutory rape prosecution!

interesting story, but it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with
what's being discussed.

[Robin Goodfellow]

nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> asked

> if you're actually interested in technical info, then read apple's
> white paper on exactly how it works.

You mean the white papers written by the clever Apple marketing team?
The ones that claim everyone secretly throttles & changes release notes?
Those white papers which completely misrepresent the truth by omission?

All they need to say is the scanning is done on YOUR phone.
Of YOUR images. Of YOUR iMessages. Without your consent.

All it needs to say is Apple exercises zero control over the list.
And that the list can grow to include ANYTHING anyone with money wants.

You don't think money talks to Apple?
Who is Apple's largest single customer?

Apple does whatever that customer tells Apple to do.

[Robin Goodfellow]

Bears <Be...@invalid.com> asked

> Snopes doesn't seem to have anything on it

Snopes has a very short summary which doesn't say all that much about it.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/apple-child-sexual-abuse-iphones/

Given Apple doesn't test their software for bugs, this one will be abused.
(The number of zero day holes in iPhones is so huge hackers stopped
accepting them because they don't need any more holes in iOS at this point.)

Keep in mind the Apple iCloud is not encrypted end to end even though Apple
says it is (but Apple has the keys so it is an empty promise (aka a lie).

Instead of scanning images in the cloud the iPhone itself will perform that
scan of the photos on the device turning each iPhone into an iNarc device.

Any number of scans can be performed with no impact to Apple servers.
Apple doesn't control the input file. It's handed to them by anyone.

Apple imposes zero oversight on who hands them what file (money talks).
False positives will occur which you can arbitrate with the government.

Apple accepts the input file from anyone who has money (think China).
There are no limits on where Apple gets the input data.
There is no size limit on the input file.
There is no limit on what files are scanned using that input file.

Given Apple's track record with too many zero day flaws in both their chips
and their iOS software, what could possibly go wrong with this new feature?

[Mayayana]

"Robin Goodfellow" <Ancient...@Heaven.Net> wrote

| nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> asked

| > if you're actually interested in technical info, then read apple's
| > white paper on exactly how it works.
|
| You mean the white papers written by the clever Apple marketing team?

I expect he probably means this one:

http://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/Apple_PSI_System_Security_Protocol_and_Analysis.pdf

The official explanation of the scanning operation, understandable
only by advanced computer engineers. I write software on Windows
but I have no idea how to read these formulae. As usual, nospam
employs red herrings and lack of actual information to make it sound
like he might possibly have the slightest idea what he's talking about.

But he never does. He's simply an arguing machine. In fact, nospam's
posts are so deceptive, predictable and lacking in factual accountability
that I've wondered whether nospam might actually be part of some
weird Stanford research to perfect AI chatbots. They may be trying
to write software that will cause the reader to believe whatever is
claimed. Think of the marketing possibilities! :)

At any rate, I've blocked nospam for years. It's pointless to discuss
with him. He'll only turn the topic progressively more murky. I only
saw his comment because you answered him.

[nospam]

In article <seorur$ar8$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Robin Goodfellow

<Ancient...@Heaven.Net> wrote:

> > if you're actually interested in technical info, then read apple's
> > white paper on exactly how it works.
>
> You mean the white papers written by the clever Apple marketing team?

white papers are written by engineering teams, *not* marketing teams.

you've obviously never written any white papers, or read them for that
matter.

> The ones that claim everyone secretly throttles & changes release notes?

hi arlen.

[nospam]

In article <seotue$i8a$1...@dont-email.me>, Mayayana

<maya...@invalid.nospam> wrote:

> | > if you're actually interested in technical info, then read apple's
> | > white paper on exactly how it works.
> |
> | You mean the white papers written by the clever Apple marketing team?
>
> I expect he probably means this one:
>
> http://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/Apple_PSI_System_Security_Protocol_and_A
> nalysis.pdf

actually, i meant this, which is a lot easier for non-geeks to
understand:

<https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/CSAM_Detection_Technical_Summary.
pdf>

> The official explanation of the scanning operation, understandable
> only by advanced computer engineers.

nope. it's actually quite simple.

a cryptographic hash is generated for photos uploaded to icloud, which
are matched against a database of known child porn.

if images match and meet a certain threshold, a manual review is then
done, after which it may be referred to law enforcement if necessary.

do you have a better solution? if so, what is it?

> I write software on Windows
> but I have no idea how to read these formulae.

it's math, not specific to any particular operating system.

> As usual, nospam
> employs red herrings and lack of actual information to make it sound
> like he might possibly have the slightest idea what he's talking about.

ad hominem.

[Jolly Roger]

On 2021-08-08, The Real Bev <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 08/07/2021 10:33 PM, John Robertson wrote:
>
>> The idiot Your Name called the LA Times "nutters" for accurate reporting.
>>https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/story/2021-08-06/apple-says-feature-to-find-child-images-doesnt-create-backdoor
>
> "The company reiterated that it doesn’t scan a device owner’s entire
> photo library to look for abusive images but instead uses cryptography
> to compare images with a known database provided by the National Center
> for Missing & Exploited Children."
>
> I find it difficult to believe that that task can be done without
> scanning the entire library -- possibly even the entire phone.

Then you're not too bright. Computing devices have been able to
differentiate between files that will be uploaded to a server and those
that won't be uploaded for many decades now. This is no huge feat for a
computer. It goes like this: "which photos are being uploaded?" - done.
Try using your brain, lady. Jesus...

> And does it search only for known kiddieporn? As long as the National
> Center hasn't seen it it's OK?

It has already been explained that the system compares hashes to a
database of hashes of *known* child sexual abuse images, and that
database is maintained by the National Center for Missing and Exploited
Children. Pay attention, lady.

> The Times (a local newspaper) is no more accurate than any other
> fishwrap.

Genetic fallacy. Try harder.

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

[Jolly Roger]

LOL... Idiots have been claiming the end of Apple for many decades.
Where are they now? Keep repeating it, dummy. Scream it from the
rooftops. After this latest GateGate is over, you'll just scatter away
with the rest of the cockroaches.

[Jolly Roger]

On 2021-08-08, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <seoikm$10b$1...@dont-email.me>, Mayayana
><maya...@invalid.nospam> wrote:
>
>> Actually, I'd trust NYTimes less than most. The most thorough
>> technical info I found was on DailyMail.
>
> the daily mail?? you must be joking.

The fact that he wrote that in all sincerity tells you all you need to
know.

[Mayayana]

"Jolly Roger" <jolly...@pobox.com> wrote

| > the daily mail?? you must be joking.
|
| The fact that he wrote that in all sincerity tells you all you need to
| know.
|

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-9866193/Apple-scan-U-S-phones-images-child-abuse.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/05/technology/apple-iphones-privacy.html

Compare for yourself. You could actually think about
what you say rather than simply spouting snideness
and cliches.

[nospam]

In article <sep7gc$rdo$1...@dont-email.me>, Mayayana

you could actually go to the source and read apple's white paper and
learn how it actually works rather than rely on second-hand
information.

do you have a better solution than what apple is doing or are you just
going to bash everything they do, like you normally do?

[Paul]

It's the "normalization" of the behavior which is the risk.

Soon, very soon, we'll be scanning everything and everywhere.

*******

When I was designing network equipment, there was never
any question about "do you look at customer payloads".

No, you don't. And the rule is so ingrained, there was
never even one single discussion about it. The machines
did not have storage for this, nor speed to do it.

Once DPI (Deep Packet Inspection) came along, it was open season.

The last piece of equipment I worked on, looking
at payload was inherent in the transport protocols used.
This rated from me:

<sigh> What's for lunch ?

And that's what I mean about normalized. If the topic had
come up thirty years ago, I would have been mortified
at the thought. Instead, it was just a deep exhale and
"well, forget the old rules, OK?".

And that's the biggest danger.

*******

By the way, this thread is "double plus ungood thinking" citizen.
The "re-education team" will be out shortly.

Whether it was intended or a joke or not, Microsoft was
supposed to be inventing or patenting a technology that
would use AI to analyze your Zoom meeting and tell
whether the staff were excited about their jobs.
Anyone who was not excited, would be fired. Requiring
you to wear your best plastic/greasy attitude in the meeting.

See, scary ideas. Volunteering for mass lunacy.

"Yes, boss, I am very excited about your idea. Very very excited."
(Wipes greasy forehead)

Things the 1984 people never thought of. Didn't have the tech.

Paul

[Jolly Roger]

On 2021-08-08, Mayayana <maya...@invalid.nospam> wrote:
> "Jolly Roger" <jolly...@pobox.com> wrote
>
>| > the daily mail?? you must be joking.
>|
>| The fact that he wrote that in all sincerity tells you all you need to
>| know.
>|
>

> Compare for yourself.

Don't need to, since I've read the actual source material, including
white papers written by industry experts.

> You could actually think abouti what you say rather than simply
> spouting snideness and cliches.

Projection. But we're used to that from you guys. : )

[Java Jive]

On 08/08/2021 13:27, Mayayana wrote:
> "John Robertson" <sp...@flippers.com> wrote
>
> |
> | Everyone who is reliable is a "nutter" according to this idiot "Your
> Name."
> |
> | Reliable media like the New York Times are nutters to this Your Name
> idiot.
> | https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/05/technology/apple-iphones-privacy.html
> |
>
> Actually, I'd trust NYTimes less than most. The most thorough
> technical info I found was on DailyMail. People like to make fun
> of them for their thong photos and love of scandal, but they get
> the news and they generally get it right.

Assuming you mean the UK daily, this is just utter rot. During the
covid pandemic the Daily Mail published fake graphs about the Spanish
pandemic as it was then unfolding, and numerous items of lockdown
denialism. It is and has been for many years, almost exclusively, the
single most complained about UK Newspaper ...

First going back as far as the Press Complaints Commission (2014):
https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/daily-mail-officially-uks-most-complained-about-newspaper-regionals-are-mostly-likely-be-censured

Second in the current system run by the Independent Press Standards
Organisation:
https://tabloidcorrections.wordpress.com/2019/01/07/daily-mail-tops-list-of-ipso-offenders-for-third-year-running/?fbclid=IwAR3pXN80CCnlJhJTEiK6HDsJSqflPkKZZwEdeUhY147EcCPMq87WEFUVdI8

... and see in the second link also about the increasing failure of good
journalism at The Times, and that some British newspapers are deemed the
least trustworthy in Europe.

Further evidence comes from the Levenson Inquiry covering the newspapers
phone-hacking scandal which gave a table of illegal, by contravening
individual privacy on fake or insufficient grounds, requests to a
database, and guess who made the most requests, of course it was the
Mail, closely followed by its sister papers.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/270939/0780_i.pdf
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/270941/0780_ii.pdf

"5.14 This table is replicated below.[52]

Table E3.1
Publication No. of Transactions positively identified No. of Clients
Journalists or using services
Daily Mail 952 58
Sunday People 802 50
Daily Mirror 681 45
Mail on Sunday 266 33
News of the World 228 23
Sunday Mirror 143 25
Best Magazine 134 20
Evening Standard 130 1
The Observer 103 4
Daily Sport 62 4
The People 37 19
Daily Express 36 7
Weekend Magazine (Daily Mail) 30 4
Sunday Express 29 8
The Sun 24 4
Closer Magazine 22 5
Sunday Sport 15 1
Night and Day (Mail on Sunday) 9 2
Sunday Business News 8 1
Daily Record 7 2
Saturday (Express) 7 1
Sunday Mirror Magazine 6 1
Real Magazine 4 1
Woman’s Own 4 2
The Sunday Times 4 1
Daily Mirror Magazine 3 2
Mail in Ireland 3 1
Daily Star 2 4
The Times 2 1
Marie Claire 2 1
Personal Magazine 1 1
Sunday World 1 1"

However, for balance, as the table above shows, the simple truth is that
no UK tabloid can be considered to be a reliable source of reliable news.

As examples, let's run three of the most popular through a fact-checking
site:

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/daily-mail/

"Overall, we rate Daily Mail Right Biased and Questionable due to
numerous failed fact checks and poor information sourcing.

Detailed Report

Questionable Reasoning: Right, Propaganda, Conspiracy, Some Fake News,
Numerous Failed Fact Checks
Bias Rating: RIGHT
Factual Reporting: LOW
Country: United Kingdom (35/180 Press Freedom)
Media Type: Newspaper
Traffic/Popularity: High Traffic
MBFC Credibility Rating: LOW CREDIBILITY"


https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-sun/

"Overall, we rate The Sun Right Biased based on story selection and
political affiliation that favors the right. We also rate them Mixed for
factual reporting due to overly sensationalized headlines and numerous
failed fact checks.

Detailed Report

Bias Rating: RIGHT
Factual Reporting: MIXED
Country: United Kingdom (35/180 Press Freedom)
Media Type: Newspaper
Traffic/Popularity: High Traffic
MBFC Credibility Rating: MEDIUM CREDIBILITY"


https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/daily-mirror/

"Overall, we rate The Daily Mirror Left-Center Biased based on story
selection that moderately favors the Left and Mixed for factual
reporting due to poor sourcing and several failed fact checks.

Detailed Report

Bias Rating: LEFT-CENTER
Factual Reporting: MIXED
Country: United Kingdom (33/180 Press Freedom)
Media Type: Newspaper
Traffic/Popularity: High Traffic
MBFC Credibility Rating: MEDIUM CREDIBILITY"

> The EFF article was a
> good presentation of implications.
>
> The NYTimes article, by contrast, was a good example of their
> usual pro-business sleaze. They use misleading wording to make
> it sound like the scanning is done on the server. With children's
> phones they say it's on the phone. With other photo's it says they
> will "spot [child porn] images... that users upload to Apple’s iCloud
> storage service". It's typical NYT. It doesn't lie outright, but it
> does mislead the reader in favor of business customers.

I don't think that's "favouring business customers", that sound like
bias on your part, it's just sloppy reporting by someone not
sufficiently understanding of the technology involved to write in detail
about it. It reads to me like a garbled version of what someone else
has written, which is almost certainly exactly what it is.

> Someone yesterday pointed out an aspect that I hadn't thought
> of: You have a 15 year old kid. They have a boyfriend or girlfriend.
> The kids are having sex. They send each other nude photos. You're
> getting copies but allow it to continue and don't report it to the
> police... Can you be indicted for running a child porn operation?
> What about the kids? Can they both be arrested? This is not

> far fetched. I once knew of a young man who had a girlfriend

> across state lines. I think he was 16 and she was 15. In one state
> it was legal. In the other he was a rapist. They had a child, but
> due to current anti-sex mania he couldn't declare himself the father
> for fear of statutory rape prosecution!

Interesting example.

> We can get into all sorts of greater complications when spyware
> tech companies are allowed to play Sherlock Holmes while throwing
> out the 4th amendment. Apple only care about their carefully
> marketted public image. And they've already shown thmselves
> incompetent with their ridiculous claim that there can only be
> one in a trillion false positives. Does anybody imagine that if
> someone gets falsely accused, Timmy Cook is going to appear
> in court and say, "Sorry, it turns out our software is crap." ?

Yes.

[Mayayana]

"Java Jive" <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote

| Assuming you mean the UK daily, this is just utter rot.

Brits seem to routinely say that, but I repeatedly get news
that I don't see elsewhere, or before I see it elsewhere. And
I have yet to find false reporting.

What I especially like is that they'll report on anyone
or anything without bias. Left or right. They repeatedly
reported on the BLM co-founder Patrice Cullors, who owns
3 houses in white neighborhoods, valued over $4 million,
while she rabblerouses for defunding police and pushes
so-called critical race theory. That kind of story is a hot
potato in the US.

[Mayayana]

"Paul" <nos...@needed.invalid> wrote

| It's the "normalization" of the behavior which is the risk.
|

Yes, and it's already gone a long way toward taking away
your rights to private property. That's the big problem with
Win10 -- the presumption that they have a right to tespass
on your private digital property.

My favorite example of what's changed: In about '99 there
was an uproar when MS were found to be reading values in
the Registry when people went to the Windows Update site.
ActiveX control in IE? DCOM hack? I don't know. But they
were doing it. People were mad. MS promised to stop. Now
they live on your machine and claim they have a right to.

| Whether it was intended or a joke or not, Microsoft was
| supposed to be inventing or patenting a technology that
| would use AI to analyze your Zoom meeting and tell
| whether the staff were excited about their jobs.
| Anyone who was not excited, would be fired. Requiring
| you to wear your best plastic/greasy attitude in the meeting.
|
| See, scary ideas. Volunteering for mass lunacy.
|

I've been seeing similar articles. I can't remember a specific
one now, but that general idea of overdoing AI mania seems
to be going around.

There's also a growing trend with QI codes, which could
eventually be ubiquitous, extremely convenient, and a perfect
way to tie together your location, purchases, communications,
leisure activities, and so on.

[The Real Bev]

On 08/08/2021 01:35 PM, Mayayana wrote:
> "Java Jive" <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote
>
> | Assuming you mean the UK daily, this is just utter rot.
>
> Brits seem to routinely say that, but I repeatedly get news
> that I don't see elsewhere, or before I see it elsewhere. And
> I have yet to find false reporting.

Moreover, they have the BEST photographs, and lots of them. They
clearly pay better than anyone else. If they cover a local-to-me story
(yeah, it happens a lot!) the coverage is way better than the Los
Angeles Times.

Sometimes they repeat paragraphis, which is probably just some sort of
editing glitch, but their use of language is a lot better than what the
US reporters use.

> What I especially like is that they'll report on anyone
> or anything without bias. Left or right. They repeatedly
> reported on the BLM co-founder Patrice Cullors, who owns
> 3 houses in white neighborhoods, valued over $4 million,
> while she rabblerouses for defunding police and pushes
> so-called critical race theory. That kind of story is a hot
> potato in the US.

--
Cheers, Bev
When you stop bitching you start dying.

[Johnny]

I see people in this group complaining about Microsoft having access to
their computers, but they do nothing about it, but complain.

Why don't these people switch to Linux if they are concerned about
their privacy? Linux Mint offers complete privacy and and complete
control of YOUR computer. There are no forced updates, and
installation is fast and simple.

If a version of Linux starts including spyware, like Ubuntu did, people
just stop using it, and move to another distribution. This is possible
because there are so many good distributions Linux. If you check out
Distrowatch, you will see that Ubuntu went from number one to number
six, and it was because of the introduction spyware.

I stopped using Windows eight or nine years ago, and would never use it
again.

[nospam]

In article <sepf97$an9$1...@dont-email.me>, Mayayana

<maya...@invalid.nospam> wrote:

>
> | Assuming you mean the UK daily, this is just utter rot.
>
> Brits seem to routinely say that, but I repeatedly get news
> that I don't see elsewhere, or before I see it elsewhere. And
> I have yet to find false reporting.

you haven't looked.

the daily mail link *you* gave about apple in this very thread was full
of false statements.

it did have a few things right, but overall it was sensationalist
rubbish.

calling the daily mail utter rot is a bit much, but it's not that far
off.

[nospam]

In article <20210808163824.76ef057b@jspc>, Johnny <joh...@invalid.net>
wrote:

> I see people in this group complaining about Microsoft having access to
> their computers, but they do nothing about it, but complain.
>
> Why don't these people switch to Linux if they are concerned about
> their privacy? Linux Mint offers complete privacy and and complete
> control of YOUR computer. There are no forced updates, and
> installation is fast and simple.

because there are so few apps and hardware support is often limited.

[Roger Blake]

On 2021-08-08, Johnny <joh...@invalid.net> wrote:
> Why don't these people switch to Linux if they are concerned about
> their privacy? Linux Mint offers complete privacy and and complete
> control of YOUR computer. There are no forced updates, and
> installation is fast and simple.

Some of us have. I've been using Linux as my primary OS for over 20 years.
(The last version of Windows I used on my own PCs was 95 or 98). I use a
Linux phone as well.

It's not for everyone though. If you need applications that run only on
Windows then you need to run Windows. If you need to use hardware that
is only supported, then that's what you have to run. (I have no such needs
so I do not. And yes, I am in business.)

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Blake (Posts from Google Groups killfiled due to excess spam.)

18 Reasons I won't be vaccinated -- https://tinyurl.com/ebty2dx3
Covid vaccines: experimental biology -- https://tinyurl.com/57mncfm5
The fraud of "Climate Change" -- https://RealClimateScience.com
Don't talk to cops! -- https://DontTalkToCops.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Java Jive]

On 08/08/2021 22:21, The Real Bev wrote:
>
> On 08/08/2021 01:35 PM, Mayayana wrote:
>> "Java Jive" <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote
>>
>> | Assuming you mean the UK daily, this is just utter rot.
>>
>>   Brits seem to routinely say that, but I repeatedly get news
>> that I don't see elsewhere, or before I see it elsewhere. And

Most often the reason why you don't see it elsewhere will most probably
be because it's fake news.

>> I have yet to find false reporting.

Isn't the most important thing about a news story that it should be
*TRUTHFUL*! How can you *POSSIBLY* ignore the all the evidence of
fraudulence and malpractice given above?

Most of the UK tabloids are there to titillate, and when it comes to
news they see their role as to inflame rather than inform. Viewed as a
reliable source of reliable news, they are totally unfit for purpose,
and as long as you continue to read them you'll be grossly misinformed
about the world, and probably have already developed a biased and warped
view of it accordingly.

> Moreover, they have the BEST photographs, and lots of them.  They
> clearly pay better than anyone else.  If they cover a local-to-me story
> (yeah, it happens a lot!) the coverage is way better than the Los
> Angeles Times.

What good is a photo if the story is junk? Read again the evidence I
gave up thread; as a news source, they are unfit for purpose.

> Sometimes they repeat paragraphis, which is probably just some sort of
> editing glitch, but their use of language is a lot better than what the
> US reporters use.

More like finger trouble combined with sloppy journalism, accidentally
double instead of single clicking <Ctrl-V> to paste, then failing to
read through what has been written, so not spotting what should have
been obvious.

>>    What I especially like is that they'll report on anyone
>> or anything without bias. Left or right. They repeatedly
>> reported on the BLM co-founder Patrice Cullors, who owns
>> 3 houses in white neighborhoods, valued over $4 million,
>> while she rabblerouses for defunding police and pushes
>> so-called critical race theory. That kind of story is a hot
>> potato in the US.

I'm sure it is, that's right wing bigotry for you, but did you actually
bother to check on the truthfulness of any of it for yourself? Clearly
not, because you've misspelt her name! So let's see what we can find out:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrisse_Cullors

"In 2021, a controversy arose in some media outlets, following reports
that Cullors (or entities associated with her) had purchased several
homes during a five year period.[58] This led to a denial of any
wrongdoing and accusations of racism, with Cullors defending her actions
as an effort to take care of her family and describing the criticism as
a right-wing effort to discredit her. On April 13, The Black Lives
Matter Global Network Foundation denied it had paid for her purchases of
real estate and said they had not paid her since 2019, adding that she
had only received $120,000 since 2013 for carrying out her work related
to the organization.[59][60][61]"

So that's on average $20,000 a year. Although I don't know much about
the cost of living the other side of the pond, I have read that the
average Trump supporter earns around $70,000 a year, though I'm aware
that some have disputed this, but what I know for certain is what that
would represent in English money. Here the average annual full-time
salary is around £31,500, so the £14,500 that $20,000 would represent at
current exchange rates is not an insignificant amount, but is not a
living salary either, working out to around 40p/hr less than the legal
minimum wage of £8.36/hr. Given that further she has a degree, has
income from her work, and has a contract with Warner Bros, none of this
smells of corruption to me, but does stink to high hell of a baseless
attempt by the right at discreditation of its political enemies - kind
of: "Well they *would* say that, wouldn't they!"

You may also care to note earlier in the page ...

"Monte [her brother] was arrested in 1999 after robbing his mother's
car. Later he was diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder and bipolar
disorder. In a fight with prison officers, he was allegedly choked,
beaten up brutally, and was forced to drink toilet water.[11][15]
Patrisse has cited this as one of the reasons for her activism.[15]"

... and various other examples given in there of the difficulties of
growing up and living where she did. I don't find it at all surprising
that she wanted to get herself and her family out of such a place just
as soon as she possibly could.

Reading the entirety of the article, all in all, she's certainly a
mixed, and possibly mixed-up, character, and I can certainly see why the
right attack her, there are things about her life that I disagree with,
but, overall, I find her far less offensive than the sort of bigoted
people who attack her.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

On Sun, 8 Aug 2021 at 20:51:23, Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote
(my responses usually follow points raised):
[]

>Assuming you mean the UK daily, this is just utter rot. During the
>covid pandemic the Daily Mail published fake graphs about the Spanish
>pandemic as it was then unfolding, and numerous items of lockdown
>denialism. It is and has been for many years, almost exclusively, the
>single most complained about UK Newspaper ...

[]
For a little light relief: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eBT6OSr1TI
(it's only 2'46)
It's startling to realise it's over 10 years old - and apart from one or
two items, and no CoViD of course, could have been written yesterday ...
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"In the _car_-park? What are you doing there?" "Parking cars, what else does one
do in a car-park?" (First series, fit the fifth.)

[Mayayana]

"The Real Bev" <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote

| Moreover, they have the BEST photographs, and lots of them. They
| clearly pay better than anyone else. If they cover a local-to-me story
| (yeah, it happens a lot!) the coverage is way better than the Los
| Angeles Times.
|

:) I'm waiting to hear how many people were at Obama's
party. I expect if anyone knows it will be DailyMail.

[Mayayana]

"Johnny" <joh...@invalid.net> wrote

| Why don't these people switch to Linux if they are concerned about
| their privacy? Linux Mint offers complete privacy and and complete
| control of YOUR computer. There are no forced updates, and
| installation is fast and simple.
|

It's not that easy for the vast majority. My personal
approach has been to continue using older Windows
and avoid Win10. For now.

Linux has lots of its own problems. It won't run Windows
software well enough. It still requires console nonsense
to really get things done. Backward compatibility is almost
non-existent. There's no simple, easy firewall that will
block outgoing processes. A norm has already been
established to let Linux go out for updates and installs.
If you want to do the install by hand? More of those console
incantations.

I recently tried 4 Linux versions out of curiosity. I was
unable to avoid console incantations. One version -- I
think it was Fedora -- overwrote my boot manager software
without asking and experts on Reddit told me that's by design.
I'm not allowed to choose to put the boot files on the Linux
partition! Another one wouldn't let me install without a
password. Linux is becoming a Frankenstein -- half Mac
polish and lockdown, half unfinished kit.

The response from Linux fanatics is always the same: If
Linux doesn't provide it easily, you shouldn't be doing it... The
only way to use a computer is as a corporate lackey
workstation, with extreme restrictions. Linux was supposed
to be about choice, but the Linux cult doesn't tolerate
choice.

So for now, I have no interest in Linux. And that doesn't
include my biggest immediate reason: I've spent 20+ years
learning and using Windows. I write software on Windows.
I don't want to throw that away. Unlike Linux, MS provides
great tools for all levels of expertise and incredible backward
compatibility. I can write software that runs on any current
Windopws computer in the world, without needing extra
libraries. That's over 20 years of backward compatibility.
Linux versions are rarely supported for more than a year or
18 months.

The simple fact is that no one is really making an effort
to produce a Linux desktop. Linux is a customizable system
for servers. That's its strength.

[John Doe]

Off-topic troll...

--
NewsKrawler <news...@krawl.org> wrote:

> Path: eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!paganini.bofh.team!DiwJGjUnaTf1UlF8c1sA7g.user.paganini.bofh.team.POSTED!not-for-mail
> From: NewsKrawler <news...@krawl.org>
> Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,alt.comp.os.windows-10
> Subject: Guardian reports: There is no privacy for anyone on the iPhone after iOS15
> Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2021 19:05:54 -0000 (UTC)
> Organization: To protect and to server
> Message-ID: <semlih$3csep$1...@paganini.bofh.team>
> Injection-Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2021 19:05:54 -0000 (UTC)
> Injection-Info: paganini.bofh.team; logging-data="3568089"; posting-host="DiwJGjUnaTf1UlF8c1sA7g.user.paganini.bofh.team"; mail-complaints-to="use...@bofh.team";
> X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.1
> Xref: reader02.eternal-september.org misc.phone.mobile.iphone:148448 comp.mobile.android:80958 alt.comp.os.windows-10:150358
>
> The iPhone lost all claims of privacy after iOS15 the Guardian reports.
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/07/week-in-patriarchy-apple-privacy
>
> Apple is about to start poking through all your text messages and photos.
>
> neuralMatch scans your photo libraries to see if they contain anything
> interesting.
>
> Another feature scans all your iMessage images for interesting content.
>
> Of particular concern to security researchers and privacy activists is the
> fact that this new feature doesn't just look at images stored on the cloud;
> it scans users' devices without their consent.
>
> There's now a wide open and virtually unclosable backdoor into every
> person's iPhone, one which has the potential to grow wider and wider.
>
> You can imagine, for example, how certain countries might pressure Apple to
> scan for anti-government messages or LGBTQ content.
>
> Apple is rolling out mass surveillance to the entire world with this,
> Snowden tweeted. "Apple turned a trillion dollars of devices into iNarcs
> without asking."
>
>

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 09.08.21 um 00:39 schrieb nospam:

> In article <20210808163824.76ef057b@jspc>, Johnny <joh...@invalid.net>

>> Why don't these people switch to Linux if they are concerned about
>> their privacy? Linux Mint offers complete privacy and and complete
>> control of YOUR computer. There are no forced updates, and
>> installation is fast and simple.
>
> because there are so few apps and hardware support is often limited.

False. There are much more applications for a given task than with
Windows 10. Much more.

Ubuntu never distributed spyware. That is a false claim. And Mint is an
offspring of Ubuntu.


--
De gustibus non est disputandum

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 09.08.21 um 02:21 schrieb Roger Blake:

> On 2021-08-08, Johnny <joh...@invalid.net> wrote:
>> Why don't these people switch to Linux if they are concerned about
>> their privacy? Linux Mint offers complete privacy and and complete
>> control of YOUR computer. There are no forced updates, and
>> installation is fast and simple.
>
> Some of us have. I've been using Linux as my primary OS for over 20 years.
> (The last version of Windows I used on my own PCs was 95 or 98). I use a
> Linux phone as well.

Same here. I bought my wife a Powerbook in 2005 because she was at odds
with Windows. That was the beginning of the end for Windows for us. I
was the admin of her Powerbook. The superiority and ease of use was so
convincing I also switched to Mac. The same year 2006 I also started to
install and use Linux. Nevertheless I had to use Windows with my
employer for another 13 years.

Last week I ordered finally top hardware with Dell with a preinstalled
Linux.

> It's not for everyone though. If you need applications that run only on
> Windows then you need to run Windows. If you need to use hardware that
> is only supported, then that's what you have to run. (I have no such needs
> so I do not. And yes, I am in business.)

Perhaps the issue we discuss here will lead to a revival for Linux on
mobile devices

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 09.08.21 um 05:27 schrieb Mayayana:

> "Johnny" <joh...@invalid.net> wrote
>
> | Why don't these people switch to Linux if they are concerned about
> | their privacy? Linux Mint offers complete privacy and and complete
> | control of YOUR computer. There are no forced updates, and
> | installation is fast and simple.
> |
>
> It's not that easy for the vast majority. My personal
> approach has been to continue using older Windows
> and avoid Win10. For now.
>
> Linux has lots of its own problems. It won't run Windows
> software well enough. It still requires console nonsense
> to really get things done. Backward compatibility is almost
> non-existent. There's no simple, easy firewall that will
> block outgoing processes. A norm has already been
> established to let Linux go out for updates and installs.
> If you want to do the install by hand? More of those console
> incantations.

You obviously never used Linux on a desktop to really to do meaningful
work. That is $Microsoft-brainwashed nonsense. I can fulfill all tasks
with Linux as well as MacOS which is also a unixbased system.

> I recently tried 4 Linux versions out of curiosity. I was
> unable to avoid console incantations. One version -- I
> think it was Fedora -- overwrote my boot manager software
> without asking and experts on Reddit told me that's by design.
> I'm not allowed to choose to put the boot files on the Linux
> partition! Another one wouldn't let me install without a
> password. Linux is becoming a Frankenstein -- half Mac
> polish and lockdown, half unfinished kit.

Total bullshit.

> The response from Linux fanatics is always the same: If
> Linux doesn't provide it easily, you shouldn't be doing it... The
> only way to use a computer is as a corporate lackey
> workstation, with extreme restrictions. Linux was supposed
> to be about choice, but the Linux cult doesn't tolerate
> choice.

That is more wrong than anything else you wrote here because it is
obvious that you never tried to understand the different architecture of
Linux.

> So for now, I have no interest in Linux. And that doesn't
> include my biggest immediate reason: I've spent 20+ years
> learning and using Windows. I write software on Windows.
> I don't want to throw that away. Unlike Linux, MS provides
> great tools for all levels of expertise and incredible backward
> compatibility. I can write software that runs on any current
> Windopws computer in the world, without needing extra
> libraries. That's over 20 years of backward compatibility.
> Linux versions are rarely supported for more than a year or
> 18 months.
>
> The simple fact is that no one is really making an effort
> to produce a Linux desktop. Linux is a customizable system
> for servers. That's its strength.

You are 15 years behind the curve and btw I'm using Linux to write this
posting.

Sorry but you are totally brainwashed by $Microsoft.

[badgolferman]

There are so many high end applications and games only available in
Windows, not to mention engineering applications such as STK or AutoCAD.

The average home user could get away with having Linux only, but gamers and
engineering companies can’t. In my business we have all three systems.
Linux is used for servers and back end systems, Macs for researchers and
paper writers, and Windows for those who actually do the work and gather or
create data for the scientists.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 09.08.21 um 12:55 schrieb badgolferman:

> Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch> wrote:
>> You are 15 years behind the curve and btw I'm using Linux to write this
>> posting.
>>
>> Sorry but you are totally brainwashed by $Microsoft.
>>
>>
>
> There are so many high end applications and games only available in
> Windows, not to mention engineering applications such as STK or AutoCAD.
>
> The average home user could get away with having Linux only, but gamers and
> engineering companies can’t. In my business we have all three systems.
> Linux is used for servers and back end systems, Macs for researchers and
> paper writers, and Windows for those who actually do the work and gather or
> create data for the scientists.

This again is rather an old concept. You are familiar with virtual machines?

But anyhow: We discussed more the private side of computing and less
high-end applications and tasks. In such profssional cases very often
the available software dictates soft- and hardware. No doubt about that.

[Mayayana]

"badgolferman" <REMOVETHISb...@gmail.com> wrote

| > Sorry but you are totally brainwashed by $Microsoft.
| >
| There are so many high end applications and games only available in
| Windows, not to mention engineering applications such as STK or AutoCAD.
|
| The average home user could get away with having Linux only, but gamers
and
| engineering companies can’t. In my business we have all three systems.
| Linux is used for servers and back end systems, Macs for researchers and
| paper writers, and Windows for those who actually do the work and gather
or
| create data for the scientists.
|

I have a brother who does writing and used to maintain
both Windows and Mac because he needed to handle files
from various businesses. Now he says he only needs Macs.
I'm not sure what changed. Maybe Office 365?

Joerg Lorenz, of course, exactly fits my description of
rabid Linux fanatics and the way they blame the computer
user for not liking Linux.
I suppose I should know better than to discuss with
people who argue through emotion, but I figure that
people deserve to hear different views, and if they only
hear from people using Linux then mostly they only hear
that Linux is the best thing since sliced bread.

I actually set up a Raspberry Pi to stream video to my TV.
It's a nice little system. And now I can transfer MP4s from
a USB stick to play on the TV. But even that limited
functionality ended up with me online, researching command
line cures... No docs. Virtually no GUI adjustments. I
couldn't even get the software installer applet to work.
"Yes, I want to install XYZ. But why are there 37 packages
named XYZ and why can't I figure out which is the actual
program?"

My very elderly father had a Linux "Go!" computer...
(Or was it "Wow!". Something like that.) It's advertised
for elders. He had been
competent with Windows, but then as his mental abilities
waned he needed something simple. There are lots of people
using things like that. Android tablets. Chromebooks. It
makes a great locked-down kiosk system. If you don't
need to know it's Linux then it's probably going to serve
well.

On Slashdot the idea of the Linux desktop has been a running
joke for *decades*. Many of them are Linux fans. It's always
an easy joke to say this will be the year of the Linux desktop.
But I think few understand why it's not. They're trying to sell
a car with no dashboard controls. And the salesman has
Aspergers. He's out in the dealership parking lot screaming
about how the whole world are idiots for not buying his car.

[sms]

On 8/8/2021 8:27 PM, Mayayana wrote:

<snip>

> The simple fact is that no one is really making an effort
> to produce a Linux desktop. Linux is a customizable system
> for servers. That's its strength.

I recall being at an embedded systems training by a manufacturer of
SOCs. A couple of people were complaining about the discontinuation of a
Linux version of the development system. The company said that they just
didn't have the resources to support the various versions of Linux. Like
most commercial, industrial, business, medical, and government
applications, it's Windows-only. You can dual boot your machine with
Windows and Linux, or Windows and MacOS, but you have to run Windows for
those kinds of applications. The M1 Macs may be great machines, but for
users that love the Apple hardware but that need to run Windows
applications that won't run well, or at all, in a virtual machine, they
are not an option.

[Johnny]

The issue is privacy. If you don't mind Microsoft, Apple, and Google
accessing the information on your computer, and tracking you online and
on the streets, keep using them.

You keep telling people these lies about Linux operating systems, like
not being able to boot into the operating system without a password,
and being forced to use the command line.

I use Linux Mint, and I never have to use the command line, unless I
choose to, and when I turn my computer on in the morning it boots to
the desktop without entering a password.

[sms]

On 8/9/2021 3:55 AM, badgolferman wrote:

<snip>

> There are so many high end applications and games only available in
> Windows, not to mention engineering applications such as STK or AutoCAD.
>
> The average home user could get away with having Linux only, but gamers and
> engineering companies can’t. In my business we have all three systems.
> Linux is used for servers and back end systems, Macs for researchers and
> paper writers, and Windows for those who actually do the work and gather or
> create data for the scientists.

I doubt if even the "average" home user could get away with using Linux
unless all they ever did was web browse and run Open Office. They could
run some Windows applications using WINE, but many don't work.

And of course for business, commercial, industrial, scientific,
educational, creative, and educational applications, Linux is out, and
even MacOS is often out. There's no Mac version of Solidworks, and the
Mac versions of things like Autocad and Avid lack some of the features
available on the Windows versions. But Linux is fine for servers and
Bitcoin mining.

I can dual boot Linux and do so for two things:
1. My HP flatbed scanner isn't supported by Windows 10 but is supported
by Linux.
2. The "A device attached to the system is not functioning" error when
using iTunes on Windows 10 to transfer photos from an iPhone. Photo
transfer works fine in Linux using the same USB port (whether this is a
bug in Windows, iTunes, or iOS, is unknown).

[nospam]

In article <seqi2i$el$1...@dont-email.me>, Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch>
wrote:

> >> Why don't these people switch to Linux if they are concerned about
> >> their privacy? Linux Mint offers complete privacy and and complete
> >> control of YOUR computer. There are no forced updates, and
> >> installation is fast and simple.
> >
> > because there are so few apps and hardware support is often limited.
>
> False. There are much more applications for a given task than with
> Windows 10. Much more.

nonsense.

the bulk of software development is for windows & mac os.

more importantly, the apps that people need to use do not exist on
linux.

for example, there is no photoshop. nothing on linux comes anywhere
close. the gimp is a sad joke. it's slow and lacks features photoshop
had 20+ years ago.

there are many, many other examples, including video editing, cad/cam,
financial software, gaming and much more.

[nospam]

In article <serbip$ljf$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> And of course for business, commercial, industrial, scientific,
> educational, creative, and educational applications, Linux is out,

yep

> and
> even MacOS is often out.

actually, macs are often in, because they cost less to manage and also
because there are mac apps that do not exist on windows or linux.

> 2. The "A device attached to the system is not functioning" error when
> using iTunes on Windows 10 to transfer photos from an iPhone. Photo
> transfer works fine in Linux using the same USB port (whether this is a
> bug in Windows, iTunes, or iOS, is unknown).

pebkac.

[Mayayana]

"Johnny" <joh...@invalid.net> wrote

>
The issue is privacy. If you don't mind Microsoft, Apple, and Google
accessing the information on your computer, and tracking you online and
on the streets, keep using them.
>

As I said above, my own approach is to use older Windows.
I also use a software firewall. I block nearly all Google domains
in a custom HOSTS file that I use with Unbound DNS resolver.
I use NoScript and other extensions. I don't bank online; don't
use social media; rarely shop; avoid supporting companies
such as Amazon, except for shopping at Whole Foods. I don't
use freebie webmail and never have.

You're making a lot of false assumptions and oversimplifications:
Linux is for people who believe in freedom. Linux is clean.
Windows is for people who don't care about privacy... You
don't actually know what I do about tracking. I'm guessing that
I'm tracked less than you are. Using Linux doesn't make you
smarter or more tech savvy or better equipped to handle
commercial exploitation.

>
You keep telling people these lies about Linux operating systems, like
not being able to boot into the operating system without a password,
and being forced to use the command line.
>

You can check with the Fedora people about the enforcement
of boot files placement. It's now their official protocol. As I said, it
erased my boot manager without asking, and they said it's supposed
to do that. I don't remember which one required a password to start
the install. It might have been Debian. But of course, you don't
want to know, because Linux is a religion for you, not an OS. So
you twist my words and say you boot without entering a password.
That's not what I said. I said I couldn't install without a password.

There's something that Linux nuts and AppleSeeds never get
about Windows users. Most of us have no religious devotion.
We don't consider ourselves to be in competition with the
other OSs. It's like Windows is a Ford Taurus, Linux is a
custom car build, and Mac is a Corvette. I don't think my
Taurus is amazing. I don't brag that I use Windows or claim
that Bill Gates is my hero. (I think he's a sleazeball, almost
as bad as Jobs.) But my Taurus works and I can fit my suitcase
or groceries in the trunk. So I stick with it. It's practical. Far
more practical than Mac or Linux for what's known as
"productivity". Mac is for consumption. Linux is for specific
purpose computing like servers or kiosks. Windows is for
actually doing stuff.

> I use Linux Mint, and I never have to use the command line, unless I
choose to
>

Unless you choose to. You're very sneaky with wording. That's
very different from the idea of a "power user" *never needing* a
console window. The last time I needed command line in Windows
was when I had to swap out hal.dll because I was updating from
single- to multi-core CPU. That made sense. But I shouldn't need it
for daily operations, and I don't.

I've actually installed Linux a number of times. Periodically I
try it out to see if it might not be more trouble than it's worth.
So far, no luck. Though I do like the Raspberry Pi for the
limited things I ask of it.

Maybe 12 years ago I actually got connected with the WINE
people. I thought maybe I'd try to move my own software to Linux
and if that worked I might switch. What a nightmare! No docs.
No API. My only choice was to send them a program and hope
a bunch of college interns could reverse-engineer it. I asked
for API docs so that I could target WINE with Win32 functions it
supported. No, they said, we don't work that way. When I recently
tried WINE again it wasn't much better. It completely fails to
see my self-subclassing windows because it can only recognize
specific API calls. And there's a new problem of no Win32 support
in WINE-64. After over 20 years, it's still mostly a project for
pimply geeks to run GTA on Linux.

But I confess that while I tried Mint, I didn't give it a
fair chance. When I saw those green, Sesame Street folder
icons I immediately decided I didn't have patience to clean it
up and I moved on to the next test system. :) I've preferred --
and still do -- Suse the most. But a reasonably coherent
distribution still can't make up for all that's lacking in Linux.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 09.08.21 um 16:09 schrieb nospam:

> In article <seqi2i$el$1...@dont-email.me>, Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch>
> wrote:
>> False. There are much more applications for a given task than with
>> Windows 10. Much more.
>
> nonsense.
>
> the bulk of software development is for windows & mac os.

Certainly for spying on users as we can see in this thread ... *SCNR*

[Mayayana]

"sms" <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote

| I doubt if even the "average" home user could get away with using Linux
| unless all they ever did was web browse and run Open Office. They could
| run some Windows applications using WINE, but many don't work.
|

Very, very few people could manage installing WINE, much
less configuring it and using it... Then of course there's still
the fact that it's perennially buggy. Though I would bet that
most home users who don't care about privacy could get by
with a Chromebook. Most people just don't use software aside
from browser.

I've often been struck by that when I help someone with a
failed computer. They rarely have software or files to retrieve.
They only care about getting back into their gmail. And most
college students now seem to use Google Docs. So it's all in
the browser.

[sms]

On 8/9/2021 7:56 AM, Mayayana wrote:

<snip>

> I've often been struck by that when I help someone with a
> failed computer. They rarely have software or files to retrieve.
> They only care about getting back into their gmail. And most
> college students now seem to use Google Docs. So it's all in
> the browser.

College students in many majors need to run Windows and/or Mac
applications. For an engineering major Windows is essential as many
applications are not available on MacOS. Even in some creative
disciplines there are some Windows-only applications. Of course on x86
based Macs you can dual boot Windows, but even then there are hardware
features that aren't available on Macs that are available on Windows.

When my son was in college there was one application he needed that
required a laptop with a touchscreen and Windows Ink. Since then that
application has been made available on iPad (with an Apple Pencil) but
that would mean that the student needed both a laptop for most stuff
plus an iPad for other stuff <https://www.staffpad.net/#Compatibility>.

Obviously there can't be a Mac version of any applications that require
a touch screen or active stylus since there are not yet any Macbooks
with Apple Pencil support. Nor did the software manufacturer bother to
do an Android tablet version since Android tablets with active styli are
not very popular.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 09.08.21 um 14:05 schrieb Mayayana:

> Joerg Lorenz, of course, exactly fits my description of
> rabid Linux fanatics and the way they blame the computer
> user for not liking Linux.
> I suppose I should know better than to discuss with
> people who argue through emotion, but I figure that
> people deserve to hear different views, and if they only
> hear from people using Linux then mostly they only hear
> that Linux is the best thing since sliced bread.

*ROTFLSTC*

Are you trying to hide your inability?
You claimed that Linux is unusable for serious stuff and the bit of
terminal is extremely complicated. That is simply wrong.

And blaming others for being emotional is absurd. Your statements are
emotional because they lack any factual base. Your judgement of Linux is
free from any credibility and knowledge. If you had used it day in day
out like Windows that would sound totally different.

Even more absurd is the claim that I am Linux fanatic but in your case
given your postings in this thread it doesn't surprise me at all.
Just to put things straight: My first system is Mac and Linux is just a
fallback system I like.

It took me less than three days to set up Mint on my MacBook Air and to
arrive at my iCloud account and use it as native application.

From any computing device I own I expect that the foreseen tasks can be
accomplished with ease, security and privacy.

By far best in combination of these requirements is Mac but the tide is
turning given the discussion in this thread.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 09.08.21 um 14:58 schrieb Johnny:

> The issue is privacy. If you don't mind Microsoft, Apple, and Google
> accessing the information on your computer, and tracking you online and
> on the streets, keep using them.
>
> You keep telling people these lies about Linux operating systems, like
> not being able to boot into the operating system without a password,
> and being forced to use the command line.
>
> I use Linux Mint, and I never have to use the command line, unless I
> choose to, and when I turn my computer on in the morning it boots to
> the desktop without entering a password.

Right. I use a password but because I want security and privacy.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 09.08.21 um 16:51 schrieb Mayayana:

> "Johnny" <joh...@invalid.net> wrote
>
>>
> The issue is privacy. If you don't mind Microsoft, Apple, and Google
> accessing the information on your computer, and tracking you online and
> on the streets, keep using them.
>>
>
> As I said above, my own approach is to use older Windows.
> I also use a software firewall. I block nearly all Google domains
> in a custom HOSTS file that I use with Unbound DNS resolver.
> I use NoScript and other extensions. I don't bank online; don't
> use social media; rarely shop; avoid supporting companies
> such as Amazon, except for shopping at Whole Foods. I don't
> use freebie webmail and never have.

That proves that you are still at the Windows-beginner's level.
Software-firewall on the system that should be protected? That's a joke.
BTW: A firewall is a stringent concept and not a software.

And the rest: Computing is rather a pain for you than fun. I feel very
sorry for you.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 09.08.21 um 16:09 schrieb nospam:

> In article <serbip$ljf$1...@dont-email.me>, sms
> <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>> And of course for business, commercial, industrial, scientific,
>> educational, creative, and educational applications, Linux is out,
>
> yep

... says someone who obviously never used Linux.
*ROTFLSTC*

[nospam]

In article <serffd$nvi$1...@dont-email.me>, Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch>

wrote:

> >> False. There are much more applications for a given task than with
> >> Windows 10. Much more.
> >
> > nonsense.
> >
> > the bulk of software development is for windows & mac os.
>
> Certainly for spying on users as we can see in this thread ... *SCNR*

there is no spying on anyone.

[nospam]

In article <sergu1$gt7$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

>
> College students in many majors need to run Windows and/or Mac
> applications. For an engineering major Windows is essential as many
> applications are not available on MacOS.

not necessarily.

it depends on which school and what type of engineering. there is no
universal answer for every student or curriculum.

for many types of engineering, macs are preferred because it's based on
unix and there are a *lot* of engineering apps and software development
that require unix.

also, a software engineering student (or someone in the industry for
that matter) can write mac, windows and unix software on a mac,
something not possible on windows.

> Even in some creative
> disciplines there are some Windows-only applications.

there are also mac-only applications as well as unix-only, both of
which will not work on windows.

> Of course on x86
> based Macs you can dual boot Windows, but even then there are hardware
> features that aren't available on Macs that are available on Windows.

not at all true.

>
> Obviously there can't be a Mac version of any applications that require
> a touch screen or active stylus since there are not yet any Macbooks
> with Apple Pencil support.

obviously, there can be ipad versions.

you're also ignoring that very few people who buy a windows laptop with
stylus support actually use the stylus, one of many reasons why there
isn't a macbook with a pencil.

> Nor did the software manufacturer bother to
> do an Android tablet version since Android tablets with active styli are
> not very popular.

android tablets in general are not popular.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 09.08.21 um 15:46 schrieb sms:

> I doubt if even the "average" home user could get away with using Linux
> unless all they ever did was web browse and run Open Office. They could
> run some Windows applications using WINE, but many don't work.

Zero knowledge. You obviously never used Linux.
You claim absurd things about Apple iOS and Mac OS but here you reach
the absolute bottom.

[AJL]

Johnny wrote:

> I use Linux Mint, and I never have to use the command line, unless I
> choose to, and when I turn my computer on in the morning it boots to
> the desktop without entering a password.

It's wise to have a password, even at home. My neighbor lost his
computers in a burglary. Fortunately his were password protected. Many
modern machines are capable of fingerprint entry which makes it almost
as easy as no password.

[nospam]

it's extremely wise to have full disk encryption.

otherwise, anyone can read the contents of the main drive simply by
booting from another drive or removing it and putting it in an external
enclosure.

the thugs won't care, but the people who buy the stolen computer might.

[AJL]

nospam wrote:

> AJL <noe...@none.com> wrote:

>> It's wise to have a password, even at home. My neighbor lost his
>> computers in a burglary. Fortunately his were password protected.
>> Many modern machines are capable of fingerprint entry which makes
>> it almost as easy as no password.
>
> it's extremely wise to have full disk encryption.

This Chromebook won't let me have it any other way. And my Windows
laptops were default though I can turn it off.

> otherwise, anyone can read the contents of the main drive simply by
> booting from another drive or removing it and putting it in an
> external enclosure.

> the thugs won't care, but the people who buy the stolen computer
> might.

The thugs in my neighbors case turned out to be neighborhood kids who
still had the computers when apprehended.

[sms]

On 8/7/2021 12:05 PM, NewsKrawler wrote:
> The iPhone lost all claims of privacy after iOS15 the Guardian reports.
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/07/week-in-patriarchy-apple-privacy
>
> Apple is about to start poking through all your text messages and photos.

No one should be concerned.

Remember what Tim Cook stated in 2015: "You can't have a backdoor that's
only for the good guys."

[nospam]

In article <sernhp$kh3$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> > Apple is about to start poking through all your text messages and photos.
>
> No one should be concerned.

correct, because apple *can't* poke through all your text messages and
photos.

> Remember what Tim Cook stated in 2015: "You can't have a backdoor that's
> only for the good guys."

it's not a backdoor nor is it even a front door.

you continue to spread disinformation.

[The Real Bev]

On 08/08/2021 08:27 PM, Mayayana wrote:
> "Johnny" <joh...@invalid.net> wrote

>
> | Why don't these people switch to Linux if they are concerned about
> | their privacy? Linux Mint offers complete privacy and and complete
> | control of YOUR computer. There are no forced updates, and
> | installation is fast and simple.
> |
>

> It's not that easy for the vast majority. My personal
> approach has been to continue using older Windows
> and avoid Win10. For now.
>
> Linux has lots of its own problems. It won't run Windows
> software well enough. It still requires console nonsense
> to really get things done.

That's not a bug, it's a FEATURE! I started using linux in 1994 when I
had a free shell account with Cal State LA and then the LA FreeNet. I
used email, usenet, and lynx for browsing -- but mostly usenet.

Ultimately I used windows 3 and then 95 and I was comfy with those
because I used them a lot. But there was a LOT of stuff that I still
used the command line for just because it was easier to co a copy
command than pointing and clicking to do the same thing.

> Backward compatibility is almost
> non-existent. There's no simple, easy firewall that will
> block outgoing processes. A norm has already been
> established to let Linux go out for updates and installs.
> If you want to do the install by hand? More of those console
> incantations.

So you're condemning processes that require actual thinking? <sigh>

> I recently tried 4 Linux versions out of curiosity. I was
> unable to avoid console incantations. One version -- I
> think it was Fedora -- overwrote my boot manager software
> without asking and experts on Reddit told me that's by design.
> I'm not allowed to choose to put the boot files on the Linux
> partition! Another one wouldn't let me install without a
> password. Linux is becoming a Frankenstein -- half Mac
> polish and lockdown, half unfinished kit.

I run slackware. I confess I couldn't do it if my live-in consultant
weren't there to deal with the difficult stuff (he refuses to use the
GUI on his main macine, preferring a number of consoles -- yes, he's a
REAL programmer), but I help him occasionally with the GUI nastinesses.

> The response from Linux fanatics is always the same: If
> Linux doesn't provide it easily, you shouldn't be doing it... The
> only way to use a computer is as a corporate lackey
> workstation, with extreme restrictions. Linux was supposed
> to be about choice, but the Linux cult doesn't tolerate
> choice.

The only thing I need windows for now is tax software. Until recently I
could only run my Canon scanner with windows, but I just bought a new
Brother laser printer/scanner which is perfectly happy to run under linux.

I run two machines. My main machine runs slackware, but I fire up the
windows machine every once in a while -- mostly at tax time -- when I
have to. I also have to use it to update the firmware on my Garmin car
GPS. Maybe some other things that I have to do so rarely that I can't
even remember them.

It just depends on what you need to do.

> So for now, I have no interest in Linux. And that doesn't
> include my biggest immediate reason: I've spent 20+ years
> learning and using Windows. I write software on Windows.
> I don't want to throw that away.

REAL programmers are adaptable. Those who only know how to do windows
stuff are severely limited. Linux people see this every day :-)

> Unlike Linux, MS provides
> great tools for all levels of expertise and incredible backward
> compatibility.

Yes, a platform for the incompetent to devise crippled software.

> I can write software that runs on any current
> Windopws computer in the world, without needing extra
> libraries. That's over 20 years of backward compatibility.
> Linux versions are rarely supported for more than a year or
> 18 months.

I don't have any idea what that means. My current machine was put
together in 2009 and the slackware GUI I'm running was updated in 2017.
If you want to update stuff you can, but I'm lazy and don't fix stuff
unless it's broke.

> The simple fact is that no one is really making an effort
> to produce a Linux desktop. Linux is a customizable system
> for servers. That's its strength.

I've looked at Ubuntu. It seems very windows-like, but I didn't feel
like going to the trouble of making it work -- and look -- like I want
it to. If I had to start over again from scratch that's what I'd use --
it seems to be the most user-friendly and handles as much of the
operation as windows does -- and as I said, I'm lazy and unwilling to
throw away the work I've been doing since... not sure, actually. The
last windows I used regularly was 95.

Let's say I've been tweaking my current linux installation since 1980
through a succession of machines and hard drives with NO destruction
whatsoever.

Switching the windows machine from 95 to 2000 was traumatic -- a total
new install as opposed to a simple upgrade. Same with the next
iteration(s) up to a newer machine running windows 7. Having to
re-install and re-configure masses of software sucks big-time. Just
remembering what you had when the smoke started oozing out of the
machine is a big problem.

My SIL's Win10 hard drive just failed. Dead. In addition to buying a
new drive (fairly cheap now) she had to buy a new copy of Win10. That's
so chickenshit I can't believe it.

I have a laptop running win10 ($65, yard sale, Dell with a touchscreen)
but I hate it and don't use it for anything -- if TurboTax really only
works under win10 (HRBlock said Win10 only, but it ran on the Win7
machine) I'll have to put it on there, but I'll REALLY hate that unless
I can hook it into my monitor and real keyboard.

--
Cheers, Bev
"Let them eat shit."
-- Marcel Antoinette, Marie's little-known brother

[nospam]

In article <sersp8$pi$1...@dont-email.me>, The Real Bev

<bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:


> Those who only know how to do windows
> stuff are severely limited. Linux people see this every day :-)

as do mac users :)

>
> My SIL's Win10 hard drive just failed. Dead. In addition to buying a
> new drive (fairly cheap now) she had to buy a new copy of Win10. That's
> so chickenshit I can't believe it.

no she didn't. swapping a hard drive does not invalidate anything.

[AJL]

The Real Bev wrote:

> The only thing I need windows for now is tax software.

I do my taxes in a browser. Works on just about any device I have.

[The Real Bev]

I prefer to keep my tax information ONLY between me and the IRS.

--
Cheers, Bev
"If Mary Jo could float I would have been president."
-- Ted Kennedy

[nospam]

In article <ses0bi$836$1...@dont-email.me>, The Real Bev

<bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >> The only thing I need windows for now is tax software.
> >
> > I do my taxes in a browser. Works on just about any device I have.
>
> I prefer to keep my tax information ONLY between me and the IRS.

yet you use third party tax software.

[The Real Bev]

On 08/09/2021 04:18 AM, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 09.08.21 um 12:55 schrieb badgolferman:
>> Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch> wrote:
>>> You are 15 years behind the curve and btw I'm using Linux to write this
>>> posting.

>>>
>>> Sorry but you are totally brainwashed by $Microsoft.
>>

>> There are so many high end applications and games only available in
>> Windows, not to mention engineering applications such as STK or AutoCAD.

Hey, there's a really nice solitaire application called kpat...

>> The average home user could get away with having Linux only, but gamers and
>> engineering companies can’t. In my business we have all three systems.
>> Linux is used for servers and back end systems, Macs for researchers and
>> paper writers, and Windows for those who actually do the work and gather or
>> create data for the scientists.
>

> This again is rather an old concept. You are familiar with virtual machines?

I had a win7 VirtualBox for a while, but I couldn't figure out how to
make it read some USB thing and it eventually turned up its toes. Too
much work (huge numbers of essential security updates -- maybe not even
available now) to do it over again. Besides, I don't trust it to do
anything serious (tax), which is the only thing I'd use it for.

> But anyhow: We discussed more the private side of computing and less
> high-end applications and tasks. In such profssional cases very often
> the available software dictates soft- and hardware. No doubt about that.

Actually, I've been running Picasa with wine for a long time. I have
yet to see a linux photo-editing program that's as easy as that. (I'm
unwilling to do anything complex to my photos.) No longer available,
although I think I have the .exe installation file stashed away, but I
don't know if it would still work or if I could actually transfer it to
the windows machine. Why does google have to kill whatever it touches?

[The Real Bev]

On 08/09/2021 05:58 AM, Johnny wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Aug 2021 08:05:27 -0400
> "Mayayana" <maya...@invalid.nospam> wrote:
>
>> "badgolferman" <REMOVETHISb...@gmail.com> wrote

>>
>> | > Sorry but you are totally brainwashed by $Microsoft.
>> | >
>> | There are so many high end applications and games only available in
>> | Windows, not to mention engineering applications such as STK or
>> AutoCAD. |

>> | The average home user could get away with having Linux only, but
>> gamers and
>> | engineering companies can’t. In my business we have all three
>> systems. | Linux is used for servers and back end systems, Macs for
>> researchers and | paper writers, and Windows for those who actually
>> do the work and gather or
>> | create data for the scientists.
>> |
>>

>> I have a brother who does writing and used to maintain
>> both Windows and Mac because he needed to handle files
>> from various businesses. Now he says he only needs Macs.
>> I'm not sure what changed. Maybe Office 365?

>>
>> Joerg Lorenz, of course, exactly fits my description of
>> rabid Linux fanatics and the way they blame the computer
>> user for not liking Linux.
>> I suppose I should know better than to discuss with
>> people who argue through emotion, but I figure that
>> people deserve to hear different views, and if they only
>> hear from people using Linux then mostly they only hear
>> that Linux is the best thing since sliced bread.
>>

>> I actually set up a Raspberry Pi to stream video to my TV.
>> It's a nice little system. And now I can transfer MP4s from
>> a USB stick to play on the TV. But even that limited
>> functionality ended up with me online, researching command
>> line cures... No docs. Virtually no GUI adjustments. I
>> couldn't even get the software installer applet to work.
>> "Yes, I want to install XYZ. But why are there 37 packages
>> named XYZ and why can't I figure out which is the actual
>> program?"
>>
>> My very elderly father had a Linux "Go!" computer...
>> (Or was it "Wow!". Something like that.) It's advertised
>> for elders. He had been
>> competent with Windows, but then as his mental abilities
>> waned he needed something simple. There are lots of people
>> using things like that. Android tablets. Chromebooks. It
>> makes a great locked-down kiosk system. If you don't
>> need to know it's Linux then it's probably going to serve
>> well.
>>
>> On Slashdot the idea of the Linux desktop has been a running
>> joke for *decades*. Many of them are Linux fans. It's always
>> an easy joke to say this will be the year of the Linux desktop.
>> But I think few understand why it's not. They're trying to sell
>> a car with no dashboard controls. And the salesman has
>> Aspergers. He's out in the dealership parking lot screaming
>> about how the whole world are idiots for not buying his car.

>
> The issue is privacy. If you don't mind Microsoft, Apple, and Google
> accessing the information on your computer, and tracking you online and
> on the streets, keep using them.
>

> You keep telling people these lies about Linux operating systems, like
> not being able to boot into the operating system without a password,

Ubuntu doesn't want you to run as root without a password. Goddam
Fascist. Slackware doesn't care, but the CUPS printer software wants
you to use a password. I suppose there's something else that can be
used, but it's easier to just give in. JWZ won't let you use his
wonderful screensavers if you run as root. There's always something.

> and being forced to use the command line.

I think you can get away without a command line, but I wouldn't want to.

> I use Linux Mint, and I never have to use the command line, unless I
> choose to, and when I turn my computer on in the morning it boots to
> the desktop without entering a password.

--
Cheers, Bev
There are 10 types of people in this world,
those who understand binary and those who don't.

[The Real Bev]

What's amazing is that Open/LibreOffice reads/writes more microsoft word
formats than the real thing does.

They're all tools. You use what you need to.

[sms]

On 8/9/2021 12:52 PM, The Real Bev wrote:

<snip>

> I had a win7 VirtualBox for a while, but I couldn't figure out how to
> make it read some USB thing and it eventually turned up its toes.

LOL, I recall being at a training class that was BYOC (bring your own
computer). The company putting it on very clearly stated the
requirements, Windows 7, 8, or 10. We had to connect three different USB
devices.

Of course some people showed up with Macbooks. The dual boot Macs worked
fine, but some needed a USB hub because they didn't have enough USB-A
ports. The Macs running Windows in a VM did not work. They could load
the software but Windows had trouble with the USB ports.

Those with dual-boot Linux/Windows worked of course, but you could not
run the development software using WINE and you could not run Windows in
a VM.

Every time that company had a new seminar they added more and more
details about the hardware you needed, eventually sending out an
application that you ran after you installed all the development
software (before the class) that checked that everything would function.

If it becomes possible to run Windows applications in a VM on an M1 Mac
it'll be interesting to see how well it works.

[The Real Bev]

Linux -- the stick shift of the computing world!

Apparently "driving stick" is now an archaic skill and a manual shift is
a reasonably good security device for your car, at least against casual
thieves.

[The Real Bev]

Long ago, just weeks before the advent of four-bangers, my husband's
Marchant calculator was stolen from his office along with all the
typewriters. I still smile to think of some junkie trying to sell it in
a seedy bar.

It still had it's anti-jam lever, too!

[sms]

On 8/9/2021 1:21 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 08/09/2021 08:38 AM, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
>> Am 09.08.21 um 16:09 schrieb nospam:
>>> In article <serbip$ljf$1...@dont-email.me>, sms
>>> <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> And of course for business, commercial, industrial, scientific,
>>>> educational, creative, and educational applications, Linux is out,
>>>
>>> yep
>>
>> ... says someone who obviously never used Linux.
>> *ROTFLSTC*
>
> What's amazing is that Open/LibreOffice reads/writes more microsoft word
> formats than the real thing does.
>
> They're all tools.  You use what you need to.

The issue with Open Office is the lack of an Outlook equivalent. For
corporate e-mail using Exchange servers this is an issue.

For a while I was using the Exquilla extension to Thunderbird for
Exchange, to avoid Outlook, but that stopped working.

But the real issue with Linux is that so many business, commercial,

industrial, scientific, educational, creative, and educational

applications, don't have Linux versions, and WINE often does not work or
work well.

[AJL]

The Real Bev wrote:

> Long ago, just weeks before the advent of four-bangers, my husband's
> Marchant calculator was stolen from his office along with all the
> typewriters. I still smile to think of some junkie trying to sell
> it in a seedy bar. It still had it's anti-jam lever, too!

I hope he had the password set and the hard drive encrypted...

[nospam]

In article <ses2d9$jec$1...@dont-email.me>, The Real Bev

<bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Ubuntu doesn't want you to run as root without a password. Goddam
> Fascist.

nothing facist about it. it's just plain common sense, *especially*
these days.

[nospam]

In article <ses2oa$qi8$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> Of course some people showed up with Macbooks. The dual boot Macs worked
> fine, but some needed a USB hub because they didn't have enough USB-A
> ports.

many windows laptops don't have enough usb-a ports, especially now that
usb-c is common.

> The Macs running Windows in a VM did not work. They could load
> the software but Windows had trouble with the USB ports.

user error, assuming the story is even true, which it almost certainly
is not because there is *no* issue with accessing usb ports in a vm.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

On Mon, 9 Aug 2021 at 13:23:41, The Real Bev <bashl...@gmail.com>
wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):

>On 08/09/2021 09:02 AM, AJL wrote:
>> Johnny wrote:
>>
>>> I use Linux Mint, and I never have to use the command line, unless I
>>> choose to, and when I turn my computer on in the morning it boots to
>>> the desktop without entering a password.
>>
>> It's wise to have a password, even at home. My neighbor lost his
>> computers in a burglary. Fortunately his were password protected. Many
>> modern machines are capable of fingerprint entry which makes it almost
>> as easy as no password.
>
>Linux -- the stick shift of the computing world!
>
>Apparently "driving stick" is now an archaic skill and a manual shift
>is a reasonably good security device for your car, at least against
>casual thieves.
>

Unfortunately, unlike a car, it doesn't stop the computer being stolen
in the first place; they may not be able to access it, but it's still
inconvenient.

(In UK, stick shift - or manual, as we call it - is still the norm; in
addition, when I took my test and I _think_ still, if you pass your test
on an automatic, you're only licenced to drive automatics. [If on a
manual, you're licenced for both.])
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

he was eventually struck off by the BMA in 1968 for not knowing his gluteus
maximus from his humerus.

[The Real Bev]

Indeed. I liked wordpad and got it to work under wine, but then it
stopped. It's not like I needed it or anything, it was just NICE. I
usually use pico for my text-only needs, but it has a few annoying quirks.

I used to be really good with Wordstar. There's a linux equivalent, but
I found that I'd lost my skill and that Open/LibreOffice was just easier
to use for things that I wanted to look pretty.

I was PROFESSIONALLY good with Ventura Publisher. There were maybe a
dozen of us on earth...

[The Real Bev]

On 08/09/2021 01:44 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Aug 2021 at 13:23:41, The Real Bev <bashl...@gmail.com>
> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
>>On 08/09/2021 09:02 AM, AJL wrote:
>>> Johnny wrote:
>>>
>>>> I use Linux Mint, and I never have to use the command line, unless I
>>>> choose to, and when I turn my computer on in the morning it boots to
>>>> the desktop without entering a password.
>>>
>>> It's wise to have a password, even at home. My neighbor lost his
>>> computers in a burglary. Fortunately his were password protected. Many
>>> modern machines are capable of fingerprint entry which makes it almost
>>> as easy as no password.
>>
>>Linux -- the stick shift of the computing world!
>>
>>Apparently "driving stick" is now an archaic skill and a manual shift
>>is a reasonably good security device for your car, at least against
>>casual thieves.
>>
> Unfortunately, unlike a car, it doesn't stop the computer being stolen
> in the first place; they may not be able to access it, but it's still
> inconvenient.

Some asshole stole the cheap radio out of my son's 1994 Integra. He
never bothered to lock it. He replaced it with a cheaper one and locks
the car now.

> (In UK, stick shift - or manual, as we call it - is still the norm; in
> addition, when I took my test and I _think_ still, if you pass your test
> on an automatic, you're only licenced to drive automatics. [If on a
> manual, you're licenced for both.])

It may be different now, but when I took my driving test in 1958 it was
in an auto and there was no restriction.

The motorcycle test -- when they first implemented them -- was to ride
to the end of the driveway making as many shifts as possible, turn
around without footing, and come back. I took it on my 1960 Ducati
Monza. There was a separate written test, and still is if you want your
MC license renewed. I'm glad I don't have to take a riding test because
I no longer have a working MC.

[badgolferman]

The Real Bev wrote:

>On 08/09/2021 09:02 AM, AJL wrote:
>>Johnny wrote:
>>
>>>I use Linux Mint, and I never have to use the command line,
>>>unless I choose to, and when I turn my computer on in the morning
>>>it boots to the desktop without entering a password.
>>
>>It's wise to have a password, even at home. My neighbor lost his
>>computers in a burglary. Fortunately his were password protected.
>>Many modern machines are capable of fingerprint entry which makes
>>it almost as easy as no password.
>
>Linux -- the stick shift of the computing world!
>
>Apparently "driving stick" is now an archaic skill and a manual shift
>is a reasonably good security device for your car, at least against
>casual thieves.

A stick shift is known as a Millennial Anti-Theft device.

[badgolferman]

The Real Bev wrote:

>The motorcycle test -- when they first implemented them -- was to
>ride to the end of the driveway making as many shifts as possible,
>turn around without footing, and come back. I took it on my 1960
>Ducati Monza. There was a separate written test, and still is if you
>want your MC license renewed. I'm glad I don't have to take a riding
>test because I no longer have a working MC.

I took my motorcycle test on a 2002 Honda Goldwing (900 lbs) in a
parking lot going around cones at a low speed. Heavy bikes don't do
low speed maneuvering well, especially for beginners. I dropped it
more than once...

[sms]

On 8/9/2021 2:20 PM, The Real Bev wrote:

<snip>

> I used to be really good with Wordstar.  There's a linux equivalent, but
> I found that I'd lost my skill and that Open/LibreOffice was just easier
> to use for things that I wanted to look pretty.

I read about Wordstar in my history book.

Seriously, I was a whiz with Wordstar for DOS. It was much better than
Word for DOS.

You can use WordTsar which is similar to Wordstar.
<https://sourceforge.net/projects/wordtsar/files/latest/download>. You
run it in a DOS window.

[AJL]

badgolferman wrote:

> I took my motorcycle test on a 2002 Honda Goldwing (900 lbs) in a
> parking lot going around cones at a low speed. Heavy bikes don't do
> low speed maneuvering well, especially for beginners. I dropped it
> more than once...

I rode a Harley for several years for my job (starting in 1975). Making
a u turn on one of those was fun because as you leaned you could send up
a shower of sparks scraping the foot pad on the pavement. One of my
coworkers once did that at a busy intersection and dumped it.
Embarrassing...

[sms]

On 8/9/2021 1:21 PM, The Real Bev wrote:

<snip>

> What's amazing is that Open/LibreOffice reads/writes more microsoft word
> formats than the real thing does.

I don't think that it's amazing. Microsoft doesn't want to you to use
old formats. In Office Pro 19 I find that it reads old formats and
updates to the newest format when you modify and save a document.

Oracle released Open Office just to annoy Microsoft. But Microsoft has
moved beyond selling copies of Office. They did an excellent job with
Microsoft Teams. Microsoft Azure is also miles ahead of Amazon Web
Services, and Google Cloud Platform for IOT.

Google Docs has become the default for many people though it lacks some
of the features of Microsoft Office and Open Office.

I have some systems that are dual boot Linux/Windows but there's rarely
a need to boot into Linux. For business, commercial, industrial,
scientific, educational, medical, creative, and educational
applications, Linux is out.

You might get an application to run under WINE but often not, and even
when it does run it doesn't make proper use of the graphics processor.

A Windows VM on Linux does slightly better than WINE but not by much and
it often has trouble with USB ports requiring console commands to modify
device mapping, and it's different for VM Ware and Microsoft Hyper-V.
The bottom line is that you're much better off doing dual-boot than
running a virtual machine.

It'll be interesting to see how things work on a Windows x86 VM on an M1
Mac if that ever happens. Right now you can install Windows 10 for ARM
on an M1 Mac.

[SilverSlimer]

On 2021-08-09 4:21 p.m., The Real Bev wrote:
> On 08/09/2021 08:38 AM, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
>> Am 09.08.21 um 16:09 schrieb nospam:
>>> In article <serbip$ljf$1...@dont-email.me>, sms
>>> <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> And of course for business, commercial, industrial, scientific,
>>>> educational, creative, and educational applications, Linux is out,
>>>
>>> yep
>>
>> ... says someone who obviously never used Linux.
>> *ROTFLSTC*
>
> What's amazing is that Open/LibreOffice reads/writes more microsoft word
> formats than the real thing does.
>
> They're all tools.  You use what you need to.

LibreOffice is wonderful but it doesn't generally read documents made
with Microsoft Office flawlessly. For my tastes, it's fantastic but my
wife is more discriminating and doesn't have my patience when Writer
screws up something that Word produced properly.


--
SilverSlimer
@silverslimer

[SilverSlimer]

On 2021-08-09 6:47 p.m., sms wrote:
> On 8/9/2021 1:21 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> What's amazing is that Open/LibreOffice reads/writes more microsoft
>> word formats than the real thing does.
>
> I don't think that it's amazing. Microsoft doesn't want to you to use
> old formats. In Office Pro 19 I find that it reads old formats and
> updates to the newest format when you modify and save a document.

I can only hope that a document created by something like Office 2007
and saved in Office 365 will still be readable by 2007. Otherwise,
that's just nasty.

> Oracle released Open Office just to annoy Microsoft. But Microsoft has
> moved beyond selling copies of Office. They did an excellent job with
> Microsoft Teams. Microsoft Azure is also miles ahead of Amazon Web
> Services, and Google Cloud Platform for IOT.
>
> Google Docs has become the default for many people though it lacks some
> of the features of Microsoft Office and Open Office.

I don't know of a single person using it, personally. I would imagine
that a lot of people would prefer to use Office Online instead since
most documents being passed around are in the Office Open XML format.

> I have some systems that are dual boot Linux/Windows but there's rarely
> a need to boot into Linux. For business, commercial, industrial,
> scientific, educational, medical, creative, and educational
> applications, Linux is out.
>
> You might get an application to run under WINE but often not, and even
> when it does run it doesn't make proper use of the graphics processor.
>
> A Windows VM on Linux does slightly better than WINE but not by much and
> it often has trouble with USB ports requiring console commands to modify
> device mapping, and it's different for VM Ware and Microsoft Hyper-V.
> The bottom line is that you're much better off doing dual-boot than
> running a virtual machine.
>
> It'll be interesting to see how things work on a Windows x86 VM on an M1
> Mac if that ever happens. Right now you can install Windows 10 for ARM
> on an M1 Mac.

Considering the M1 is an ARM processor, I can't imagine why it wouldn't
install.
--
SilverSlimer
@silverslimer

[nospam]

In article <kKiQI.538$wq1...@fx14.iad>, SilverSlimer <sil...@slim.er>
wrote:

windows for arm is designed for qualcomm processors, not generic arm.

it would better be called 'woq', windows on qualcomm.

microsoft does not support nor license windows on m1, at least not yet.
that may change, but until it does, it's not a viable option.

third parties have managed to install it on m1 macs, but it requires an
insider preview, it's not that simple to install and there are major
issues in using it, largely because 64 bit apps won't work and 32 bit
apps are not exactly fast under emulation.

so yes, you can 'install' it, but you can't do much with it.

sms is once again being very misleading.

[The Real Bev]

A good net-friend loved doing cones on his police bike. He was so good
at it he taught cops the finer points. And then he ran over a cone...

--
Cheers, Bev
Teamwork: A bunch of people running around doing what I tell them.